How to Approach Discrimination in the Workplace with Danielle Cobo
Welcome to another episode of “Dream Job with Danielle Cobo”!
Discrimination can be an unfortunate reality for a lot of workplaces. In today's episode, I talk all about my own experiences with discrimination in the workplace, what kind of questions are appropriate during an interview, why it's beneficial to have women in positions of power and what you can do if you feel you've been discriminated against. Tune into this episode!
"Nothing is going to change unless we amplify our voices and speak up" - Danielle Cobo
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Highlights
💫 2:27 Do you work in a male-dominated industry?
💫 7:51 What kinds of questions are appropriate in an interview setting?
💫 15:52 What to do if you feel discriminated against in an interview
💫 20:04 Why we need more women in positions of power
💫 21:40 Are you afraid of the stigma attached to speaking up?
💫 22:39 5 things you can do if you feel you've been discriminated against
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Claiming my Space as a Woman in a Male-Dominated Environment
How often have you been in a situation where something didn't feel right, something felt a little off? Maybe you've been in a situation where somebody's made advancements toward you. And it didn't feel right. Maybe they've touched you inappropriately, maybe you've been in an environment where you didn't feel like it was comfortable to be there. Or maybe you felt like you went for a promotion, but maybe you didn't get the job because you're a woman just by your gender.
It happens to more of us than we think, 42% of women in the United States have felt that they face discrimination because of their gender. And I'm going to be sharing a couple of stories with you today. I've experienced it firsthand. And I think that earlier in my career, I didn't feel confident in having a voice and knowing that it's okay to say no to things and that it's okay to not put yourself in environments or to step away from certain environments.
I started my career in medical sales, I started my career in capital equipment sales, which, out of 100 sales reps in the organization that I work for, I was one of seven women. So I know what it's like working in a majority male-dominated industry, and really being able to stand on your own as a powerful, confident woman. And really setting boundaries, where I stood on my own and I was seen and viewed as just like them. Obviously, I know that I'm a woman, and the majority of people I work with were men, but I was seen as being part of them because there was a circle of trust that was created. Now I understand that, you know, in that time, sometimes the circle of trust was, I would see things that would happen at national sales meetings, and maybe I didn't speak up, say my voice. And there's been a couple of times throughout my career where I've experienced this, I've seen things that weren't appropriate, weren't right. And I didn't speak up. And what I've learned is that if we want to create a work environment that is supportive of women, and our future generations, then it's important that we speak up, and we create change.
So when I was with one of the companies I was with for a long time, there was a lot of movement around in the organization. So they promoted this philosophy and this mentality where if you wanted to advance your career, there was a benefit of doing lateral moves, which I agree with; because when you do a lateral move, what happens is it exposes you to different divisions and the different ways that each of the divisions run their business and how different divisions collaborate together. So I was a big advocate of it. And it's not always about going up, sometimes you go laterally up. But here's the one thing that I did not agree with. And looking back, what I would do differently, is speak up. So I was going on this interview, I had been with the organization for five years. And in my background, I had medical sales experience. In fact, for this particular division, I used to sell against them. I used to work for a competitor. So I had industry experience, the person that I was interviewing with had five years of leadership experience compared to those who only had one year of leadership experience. This was their first time working in the industry and I had already been in the industry working for the same company for five years. I had also a previous year and a half working for a company that was a competitor. And I was interviewing for a position where my current region was five states. So I was traveling by plane all the time. In fact, a year previously, I was living in Alabama, and I was commuting every week to the southeast. So I would go on a plane on a Monday, I would fly across the southeast, and I would come home Thursday night. I did this for a year and a half, I spent 250 nights in a hotel room. So while my claim to fame was, that I earned a diamond delta, which basically just means that I spent more time in a hotel room and on a plane than I did at home. Now, my husband was, you know, in aviation school becoming a Blackhawk pilot. So he was busy anyways, we just kind of it was a temporary period in our time, but, you know, I was used to traveling a lot. And at this time, when I was interviewing for the position, I was a new mom, you know, I have twin boys. And I was covering five states. And so as I'm preparing for this interview, we introduce each other, and I go through my background. And, you know, he starts to ask me some questions about my background and why I'm applying for the role and I had a passion for the division. I thoroughly enjoyed it, it was a blend of having my capital equipment background, which I had six, gosh, I don't know how many years six plus years now seven years of capital equipment background. And I also had experience. Also, with this consumable side of the business, I had experienced earning Region Manager of the Year, and I had four back-to-back President's trips. So I'd have a proven track record of success, not only as an individual contributor in capital equipment but also as a region manager working for this organization.
So we're going through, and as he's asking me questions, I felt this thing. I felt like, I was kind of questioning myself, did he even look at my resume? Because the questions he was asking are, you know, things that if you looked at my resume, you knew I was familiar with the industry, you knew that I was familiar with the products I had sold against it. Right? So I had plenty of experience with this. And then when it got to a couple of questions, this is where I want to really put on the radar on if you are in an interview, there are certain questions they can ask, and there are certain questions they cannot ask. Okay, so HR violation. So questions that they cannot ask are anything about your age, anything about your sexual orientation, anything about your marital status, they can't even ask you if you're married, they can't ask you if you have kids, they can't ask you if you're pregnant. They can't ask you about your race or your ethnicity. They can't ask you about religion. And here's one that most people don't know and a lot of managers still ask and they're actually not allowed to, they cannot ask about your salary history. So there used to be this expectation when before offering the offer letter, they would ask you to send in your two most previous years of W tos and that's how they would gauge what they would offer as an offer letter. Well, that's actually discrimination because quite frankly, you could have been underpaid in your role for what your experience or value that you brought. So just know that they can't ask you about your salary history.
Here's the questions that they asked me, this individual asked me, and said, “Okay, well, I see here that you're applying for this role. And this is going to require a lot of trouble because it's an entire state.” I said, “I understand, you know, I currently travel right now.” And he goes, “Well, how are you going to travel with kids?” I'm like, okay, again, did you look at my resume? I was covering five states. I was used to traveling, I've traveled my whole career. And I was interviewing for a position that was in one state, if anything, this was going to significantly reduce my travel because I could drive anywhere. I wouldn't be on a plane. And most of the time when I was on a plane I was doing connecting flights. So he asked me, well, how are you going to do this job with kids? How are you going to travel? Then the next question he asked was because I'm a military spouse, I can definitely share that information. If I'm the one that's, you know, sharing it. He's gonna ask me the questions where he wasn't able to do or what he's not allowed to do is ask me, “Is your husband deployable?” Then as a follow-up to that – because I had responded, I said, “Well, yeah, he's in the middle of Harry. At any point, my husband can be deployed. That's part of being in the military. Now he's reserved, he doesn't deploy as frequently, but he deploys, it's just part of being in the military.” But he asked me, “Is he deployable? And how are you going to do this job if he deploys?” I was blown away. So remember, I have five and a half years of being a hiring manager, I know what questions he can and cannot ask. I felt so offended in this interview, where not only did I feel like he didn't take the time to look at my resume, to look at my background to know that I had more experience than him, a more of a proven track record as a manager and as an individual contributor than him, more industry experienced than him. And the feeling and the impression that I got through the interview process was that he was just doing a check the box like, I'm just going to interview her because I have to interview her, because she's an internal person. And, you know, she's another manager. And I'm no, I'm not alone on this, because there were other people that were interviewed for the same position, and they felt the exact same way. So you really think about like, what culture is created when this is the impression that they're getting from internal employees. I can't even imagine what would be happening if he was asking these questions to an external employee. So these questions are not allowed. They're not allowed to ask you what your marital status is, if you're gonna have kids, or if you're a military spouse – which this is such a hard one because quite frankly, I really second guessed myself throughout my career on whether to tell people I'm a military spouse because I'm proud, you know, I serve the country alongside my husband; my family serves our country. But there's also a lot of stigma around being a military spouse, there's a lot of reservations in companies saying, “Well, you know, are you going to move? How long are you going to be here?” The questions are in there, whether they ask it or not is entirely up to them.
But there's a fear that some military spouses have when it comes to saying that they're military spouses. So I knew that they couldn't ask these questions. So what did I do? So I was very loyal to this organization. And I think that my first learning lesson is whether you're loyal to an organization or not, it's important that you create awareness of what's happening, take it a step further, and take action. Because if you don't, then what happens is, it's going to continue to happen. Nothing's going to change unless we put things in place. Unless we speak up, unless we amplify our voice, unless we create change, it's got to start with us. So you think about, you know, if you're a mom, do you want your kids to go through the same things? Do you want your friends to go through the same situations? Do you want your peers to go through the same experiences?
Speaking Up and Taking Action to Make a Change
So I reached out to HR and I said, you know, I love the company that I work for and I just want to make you aware that these are some of the questions that were asked. Luckily, I'm an internal employee. And I'm not going to file anything, but I want to make you aware and I want something to be addressed about this because this isn't right. And if he was asking an external employee, or if he's asking an internal employee, the reality is, it could be a major lawsuit and he's putting our company at risk. Either he needs training on what he can and cannot ask and conversations he can and cannot have. Or he needs to not be in that position. Those are the two options. See, I'm always going to advocate for the training, maybe he just didn't know. I mean, those are pretty obvious ones, but the benefit of the doubt, you know, positive intent, maybe he didn't know.
So I reached out to HR, and here's where if I could go back, I would do something differently is, I would have called the Employees Relations Team. Because at that time, the HR department didn't do anything. They didn't address it, they didn't follow up with me. And there are times after that, where I've noticed kind of a habit on things, where situations would come up, reach out to HR, and nothing would really be done. So one thing is, yes, call HR. But really, if you're in a situation where something's not right, sexual harassment, interview questions, or there's just a toxic environment, call your Employee Relations Team, that's what they're there for. Oftentimes, they'll have a third-party company do an investigation. Okay. So looking back, that's one thing that I wish I would have done differently. Because the reality is, I don't know if it's going to change. And I want to be the voice for future generations.
And here's the thing, I'm going to give you kind of some stats around why this is so important when it comes to speaking up. And women having a voice is, think about this, you think about, you know, I came from an aesthetic industry, for example, or even my previous background in dental sales is an aesthetics. It's predominantly 90% of the consumers are women, and the sales force is predominantly women; however, when you look at management and mid-level management, yes, there are more women, but the majority of them are men. Now you get to that VP level, or that National Sales Director and VP level, significantly more men than women. Why is that? Because there are perceptions out there on what women can and can't do. And there's this mindset to that the underlining effect that that has on women is, women feel like when I hear this from women all the time from clients is if I have kids, it's going to ruin my career. Or I don't want to post pictures of my kids, because what's going to happen is, what if the hiring manager looks at me on social media, and they're gonna make this assumption that I can't do the job because I have kids? That's not right. That's not right at all.
And here's why we get to speak up because if you look at just the overall leadership team, for every 100 men that get promoted and hired to be a manager, only 72 women are promoted and hired – only 72. So when you really look at some of you know, there's been a lot of studies on ROI, and women are often found to work twice as hard, or not even twice, but harder because we're balancing being the primary caretaker at home, as well as working. And when you look at some of these bigger companies that have women in leadership roles, they're actually more profitable than a lot of the other companies. So the stats show that women can be very beneficial in leadership roles. However, very seldom are companies doing this. So 62% of men hold manager level positions, while only 38% of women do. So look at the organization that you're working for, and what percentage of men are holding these leadership positions versus women. And this is not male bashing. Okay. I am a wife to an amazing man who is strong, you know, he's a strong man. He's a big supporter of mine. It's one of the reasons why I love him is he lets me be a strong independent woman. But I also lean on him a lot, we are a couple, and we are equal on things. And I'm also raising two boys. So I'm not this is not male bashing. This is being an advocate for women. So again, 62% of manager-level positions are held by men, and only 38% are by women. That's an example right there when I was interviewing for this position. And this mindset that you can't do this job if you're a mom, or you can't do this job if you're a military spouse, take it a step further.
Okay, those are manager-level positions. 78% of suit jobs are held by men, 78%. And we know that statistics show that when women are in leadership roles in Fall serve as a unique environment for company culture, because there's, there's different skill sets that are involved with empathy and understanding and the importance of work life balance so that your employees don't experience burnout. And there's been stats that show that companies are more profitable when they have more women in leadership-type roles. So like I said, that’s one of the things looking back, that I wish I would have said more and advocated more.
And, and if you've ever been in that situation where you felt like there's been discrimination, where you've had sexual advancements that have made towards you, you felt like something wasn't right, be the voice of the future, be the voice of the future generations, speak up for yourself. 63% of women do not file a complaint. So now I fall under one of those stats, 63% of women do not file a complaint. 39% of employees aren't confident that their issues will be addressed, and 46% fear retaliation, and I was one of those employees. I felt like well, first off, it didn't really get addressed. So then what happened is because I had created awareness around this, it didn't get addressed, then I didn't feel confident that the future situations that came up would also be addressed. Now I also recognize that there's a stigma around it, too. One of the things that went through my mind was, well, if I say something, if I file a complaint, then people are going to think, “Oh, well, there's Danielle. She's the one that filed a complaint against the company, you know, be careful what you say to her.” Yeah, there's probably going to be people that are going to think that but the reality is, if we want change to happen, it's so important for us to speak up. It's so important for other women that are out there and for the future generations that are coming up. And if people are gonna judge then that's on them. If 10 people judge me, but I'm able to make a change for another woman, or another employee, or another coworker or friend, it's worth it.
Five Things You Can Do to Approach Discrimination in the Workplace
So let's kind of talk about what are some things that you can do. What are five things you can do if you were in a situation where you felt like you've been discriminated against? So how can we take the situation where, you know, maybe there's some opportunities to change it a little bit and share what you can do differently, to speak up?
Follow your intuition.
If it doesn't feel right, then speak up. If you're in a situation where you feel like there's been inappropriate touching, or you've been in a work environment that's been inappropriate, speak up. If you feel like you're being discriminated against, speak up. Okay, reach out to HR if you can't reach out to employee relations, because often they'll have like a third-party company that will do the investigation.
Record what happened, and remove the emotion from it.
When they go to investigate, they're not going to investigate the emotions. They're going to investigate the facts, and what happened. And the more time that goes by where you didn't write down things, it's easy to forget. So the minute it happens, or the minute where you say, “I'm going to take action” – or even if you don't take action right away, which I still encourage you to do – at least write it down, write down the things that weren't right. So in that particular situation, I would have written down the questions that they asked that were completely inappropriate. Then report it to your HR, or your Employee Relations Team.
Be the voice of the future, speak up.
If we don't speak up, it will continue to happen. Also, while you also go into it, report it to your Employees Relations Team.
Seek outside help as well.
Make sure you get outside representation so that someone else outside the organization is advocating for you and providing some guidance on what things and actions that companies should or should not be taking to move forward with the discrimination.
Be mindful of retaliation.
The reality is, there may be retaliation, especially if you're in a situation where there are maybe sexual advancements that have been very frequent. I think that a lot of women out there had experiences where inappropriate advancements have been made. So be mindful of retaliation. If you're ever in a situation where there is retaliation, record it. Record everything that happens when it happens and your retaliation that happens, your conversations with employee relations, your conversations with HR, and your conversations when you seek outside help.
So again, follow your intuition. If it doesn't feel right, speak up, record what happened, remove your emotions and state the facts, report the discrimination, be the voice of the future, get outside help, and be mindful of retaliation and record it. There is no reason why we, as women, should be in situations where we are being discriminated against because we are a woman. There is so much research out there that shows that women in leadership positions in those organizations thrive. There's no reason why any woman should be in a situation where she does not feel comfortable or safe, walking into an office or into a work environment. If you're in any of these situations, speak up and be the voice.
Looking back, I wish I did. And that's why I'm sharing with you the story today because it's a matter of making change.
