Are you Pretzeling at Work with Osato Chitou
Welcome to another episode of “Dream Job with Danielle Cobo”!
Today, I am blessed to be joined by Osato Chitou.
Osato Chitou is an attorney by training, however, prior to finding the law and compliance, she was both an educator and a social worker. She has held positions throughout her career such as Chief Legal and Compliance Officer, Medicare Compliance Officer, and Compliance Officer for one of New Jersey’s largest urban teaching hospitals. In addition, Osato was in private practice as an associate in the Corporate Healthcare & Healthcare Privacy Practice Group. Osato is the Founder & Principal Consultant of Compli by Osato.
In today's conversation, we talk all about not having to conform to the roles set out for us by society, some advice for those who do feel like they're "pretzeling" and how to best support the black community in the workforce. Tune into today's episode!
“We need to understand who we are and what our 'shine' is, in order to unpretzel and to stand up straight" – Osato Chitou
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The Pressure for Women to Pretzel
When I use the terminology pretzel, what I mean is bending ourselves into different shapes in order to satisfy other people's needs and wants. This, to me, becomes particularly evident when individuals are held to certain cultural mores related to race, class, gender, etc. So for me, personally, I did a great deal of filling throughout my career and my life. I am Nigerian. So with being a Nigerian, I'm a black woman. There are certain cultural expectations that I was required to hold: number one of them being incredibly highly educated. That is the Nigerian way of doing business. We are very limited in our options, in terms of what we can and cannot do. And what do I mean by that? You have to be a something. There was no, “I'm not going to college. I'm not going.” It wasn't just you go to college, you're gonna get a master's, and you're gonna get some other higher level degree, then coupled with, sort of gender norms and gender expectations of marriage and motherhood—those are requirements, or you're almost seen as a disappointment or failure. So I have those buckets of cultural expectations where I must bend and shape and turn myself into those things. Then coupled with the pixeling as a black woman in America. So there are certain places and things that I'm allowed to say, at my level. And so working in predominantly white spaces, being me—the complete me—I got punished for that. So I had to make calculations on a daily basis, what I was going to wear, how I was going to talk, how I was going to wear my hair in order to fit those expectations and not be punished. So when I say pretzel, it is shaping yourself like a pretzel to fit other people's needs and wants. And so today we want to be a pretzel, but tomorrow they may want a burrito. And so then I have to change into a burrito because the outfit I wore today, or the voice inflection that I utilize, or the new extensions that I got, did not fit white America's mold, or I selected to separate from my husband. I happen to have married another Nigerian. So, that's when I got reward because I was satisfying the cultural norms exiting from a marriage like that. One will get punished because culturally, you don't get divorced. Someone has to die in that marriage to separate. So that's the terminology. Die wars, right? There's certain things that I like to do that maybe folks would think that's kind of bizarre, like this black lawyer woman, that's also Nigerian, is doing that.
I love crystals. I love chakras, and that whole sort of other spiritual world. And again, those are outside the box of my professional lawyer, black woman—whatever label you put on it. And so once one begins to put on pretzel and figure out who they are and bring all of that to the table, it's felt with backlash, particularly when you look like me. So that's what I mean by current zoning.
That sounds like a lot of pressure. I would imagine that is a lot of pressure to put on yourself to fit certain molds to put such high expectations. And to constantly be questioning yourself of, “Am I saying the right thing? Am I wearing the right outfit? Am I doing the right thing?” And there's already that pressure as itself, being a woman in corporate America. But to add another layer of cultural expectations, that just sounds like so much.
You hit the nail on the head in terms of pressure. So I am coupled with being an attorney; I also have a master's in public health. And a great deal of the work that I did in the public health space really focused on the impact of social networks on women's health outcomes, particularly women of color. And so when you're saying the pressures in impact, I mean, there are numerous studies that have been conducted on birth outcomes for black women. So they looked at similarly situated black women and white women, and when I say similarly situated, same socio-economic status, in terms of level education, income, etc. But you have these black women having incredibly poor health outcomes, like, at the level of the developing world, which it should not be as we live in America. And so, what social scientists and medical professionals and public health professionals attributed that to was the pressure of operating as a black woman in America. So we don't even realize the extent of those calculations. The extent that having to conduct those calculations on a daily basis have on us. So I mentally calculate, “Okay, what am I going to say today? What I'm going to do? How I'm gonna wear my hair, is he gonna judge me? Oh my God, I cannot say this. I cannot come out like that.” I used to do this, I would push my baby in the stroller in my neighborhood, and make sure the stroller was turned around in a way, so they could see that there was a black child in there. That I was not the nanny. So that I was not racially profiled, pushing a baby down the street. I have to do all of that, and then also show up to work and do a good job. You know the saying, we have to work twice as hard to get to the same place as a similar situated white woman? I'm gonna stay at work ‘till four o'clock in the morning, which I did used to do when I was nine months pregnant and take the car service home from New York City to New Jersey and be back at the office at 9am. I did all of that. Of course, I'm gonna hide, have high blood pressure, have a stroke and die at 45. I'm like, “Why are you guys having this as the public health analysis?” It's very straightforward. And so the pressure, Danielle, you hit it on the head; it has significant impacts. It's a lot and it’s my message now because I've unprincipled and I refuse to pretzels, because this is me, love me or leave me is to spread that message to others. You have to unprepped so you gotta be you—regardless of the punishment.
Advice to Women who are Penciling
It's multifaceted. I would say step number one, you have to spend time with yourself. So you have to understand at this very point in time, who is it that you are right? So if you've pretzels so much, you literally have back pain. I used to have back pain from the wrestling. So if you've pretzels so much, you don't even know how you look standing up straight—we have a ton of work to do. So that is step number one—level of self awareness. Oh, what I've been practicing my whole life is set up in a way for other people. And so that is a dedicated, intentional effort one must have. So if I'm spending 10-15 minutes a day, you know, we're gonna start small. Because I know it's a radical thought process. As simple as it sounds, I'm going to spend that that few moments every day figuring out who am I, because I've just gotten so far off the deep end in terms of letting go of myself and letting other people shake me. Once we've done that, once we've spent that time, once we become intentional, it is a willingness to be in alignment on a daily basis, and it's little baby steps. But what our real, true, livelihoods are. and also accepting and being okay with it might look completely different from what you've set up right now. So when I think of professional black women, like myself, when I say professional, you're your doctor, you’re a lawyer, you’re an accountant, you are a high school principal—whatever the case may be, these were all things you check the box, right?
They said in order to be a successful black person in America, you must be an x, right? Because that is when you are rewarded. That's when you think, you know you can live in that neighborhood, can drive that car; people are not going to racially profile. But guess what? When the police are coming, they don't say, “Oh, don't shoot art. She's a lawyer.” I'm still a black woman in America. So if that is the case, shouldn't I be who I'm supposed to be whatever that might look like? And I'm not saying you got to put the lawyer bucket down. We can mold that into all of the other pieces of ourselves. Why is it the lawyer piece is the one that people get excited about? It's because that makes people feel comfortable. So what? Who cares? There are 8 million lawyers in the world. That's not what makes me special. That's not my shine. And so we got to understand who we are and what our strengths are in order to start unprincipled on pretzel and stand up straight. Because, like what I said, today they want a pretzel. Tomorrow, they want a burrito. Can you turn yourself into a burrito? And what about one pizza the next day? What are you gonna do? You cannot continue to flex in shape at the whims of other people. And as we continue to do that, we recognize that we are just subject to everybody's external forces. Why? Because we're not centered. And you only get centered when you know you. Because whatever else is happening outside of you, it can move you and can shake you. You want to act a fool today. That doesn't bother me. I know who I am. But and I am saying this and it may sound flippant to someone who this is a new message. But this is a six year journey for me. So I'm just getting to that space. Love me or leave me you know you.
That authenticity is courage and strength. And it's a journey to get there. You've shared your journey and as you said, it's taken six years. But to get to a place where you feel like you can be who you are, what you know as a lawyer as a business woman, wearing your Doc Martens, listening to Nirvana and Biggie—all within one and just owning every part of you is incredible. And it's what I think a lot of women strive to be but have a hard time unthreatening. So we talk about I'm penciling, and I think it's so valuable your message, because there's a lot that you share today in our conversation that, you know, as a woman who is white, who has blonde hair, who's this stereotypical woman sometimes and the perceptions of me, there are lot of things that you don't know about, some of the expectations and pressures that are put on me, and I don't know about yours. And it's when we truly understand and listen to what other people go through, that's when we get to come together and have these open and honest conversations and come together to move forward to get to a point where we see each other for the beauty that we are inside.
So what advice would you give for the black women community?
It's a super sensitive question for me, right. And so the reason I say it's super sensitive, you know, particularly in this, I will never call it post-racial, because it's not post-racial. But I would say there's a heightened level of awareness regarding race relations in America. And that was because you just keep it real, we were quarantined. There was nothing to do. So I'm gonna watch videos of people killing black people. And so now that there was a sudden push, we must solve race relations today. It’s been like 500 years of stuff that has happened that y'all have not dealt with. So now, we're not going to solve that problem today. What you can be responsible for, particularly as white woman—I would say, we are on the same level, we're professionals—is you have to do your own internal excavation about the benefits that you've had as a white woman. Because if we talk about things like affirmative action, and diversity, etc, etc, it's white women that benefit. So as a lawyer, when they say diversity in the ranks at law firms, what they're talking about is white women. So just own the benefits of your white woman. So we need to start there. Because the interaction that I have with other white women, particularly related to this subject, is we want to be your allies, we're here to support you as a whole before you can help and support me and be a true ally. I need you to do your own internal work:
Write about the benefits that you've received.
And after you've done that internal excavation, what are you doing on your own before you come to me?
What are you doing in your own circle to improve issues related to diversity and inclusion?
I'm going to keep it from the lawyer perspective. So if you are a female partner at a law firm, and you've been a female partner at a law firm for a period of time, have you looked around to see, “Are there other black partners at my firm?” If you've never asked yourself that question, you have to tell yourself, “Well, why have I never asked that question? Why do we have no black partners?” Why is it today that you started to ask that question? Is it because of George Floyd? So if that's the case, the only reason you're now asking a question about why there are no black partners, then you yourself have not done that internal work. So I don't want to start having that conversation about ally-ship until you've done your own inner excavation. I'm using lawyers, because that's what I know. Map it onto anything. So if you're part of a social group, a woman's professional network, you're part of a you know, community organizing, etc, etc. are there black people, other diverse people in those groups? Are you only now asking the question? Why? Wait, hold on. So if that's the case, you yourself have a lot of work to do. So you cannot be my ally until you have also done your work because then I can believe it, then I know in your heart, you're truly committed. That is the problem.There's not a level of commitment truly in your heart. I need to know it's from your heart. And I only know it from your heart if you to have your done your own work.
I think back on your saying this about looking into your own self and the people that you surround yourself with. I have been friends with my my group of friends; there's about 15 of us, we've been friends for like 15 years—we're getting to the part where we're saying these double digit years. No. And one of the things I love about my group is we come from a complete diverse background. We get together for every birthday, we get together multiple times for the month when we lived in California. We have now dispersed but we have one woman, who is Persian, from El Salvador. One is from Colombia. Then there are people just in our group, it's just different backgrounds, different upbringings, people that I've grown up in and going into private schools or whole life, and women who grew up as you know. I was raised by a single mom and shopped at thrift stores growing up; most of my clothes were on layawaYou become stronger as a person when you surround yourself with diversity. And when you pay to understand different cultural backgrounds. There's nothing more than I love, going into an area—wherever it is in the world–and immersing yourself in the culture, not just going and looking at the site stuff, but really understanding the culture and the heart of it. And I know that there's probably people out there, and I'm just going to be very honest about this, that are saying, “Well, this is a privileged thing.” I don't you know, they may or may not agree with it. But let's just get to the straight facts here. There are studies out there that show even if you are pretty and I find myself to be and I'm confident as am, I find myself to be an attractive woman. And there's just a reality of being an attractive woman that you get advancements in your career; there's just a reality to that. And if we're not going to admit that, we're going to stay here. So, you know, to be a woman that is beautiful woman who is also white, there's just more opportunity. We need have more opportunity in the sense that we all have the same opportunity.
I remember I was interviewing somebody to be on my team, and we're in this static world. And I remember somebody looking over me, and this woman that I was interviewing was a little bit heavier, and I remember her—the person interviewing with me, said, “Well, do you think that she's going to be a good fit and aesthetics?” And I was like, “What do you mean by that?” And she's like, “Well, you know, she's not this thin. I'm going, “Are you kidding me? I know, she's a rock star. She's She's knowledgeable, she's strong, she's confident, she's going to add value.” I see her as being like the best candidate for the job, no matter what she looks like, it's because of her. But those stereotypes exist in all areas, just by the way that we look. I mean, when you look at judgments and perceptions, they say they're statistics that show a man will look at somebody and make an assessment about them within 10 seconds. Absolutely. With women, it's under seven seconds.
None of what you're saying surprises me. I'm just glad that you're owning it. Because I could be sitting in a room with a different set of white women. And they'll tell you, “No, it's all about their academic and credentials, etc, etc.” And we just know that's not the case, right? So there is a level of grace that is granted to white women. And that's been since time immemorial, that me as a black woman and a dark skinned black woman, I'm just not granted with. And that's okay. But everyone just needs to own that. And I'm just glad you're like one of the first white women I've ever heard verbalize that, which is actually quite refreshing. So let your people know. It's the truth.
There's just a reality to it. I think the challenge coming from a corporate environment is we're scared to have these conversations. Very scared to have these conversations. Because what if I say one thing—I remember there is one thing that I said, and somebody brought to my attention, like “Danielle, that might be considered racist.” And I was going, “Oh, my gosh, I had no idea.” And tensions were there. But I had no idea. And until we have these open, honest conversations, we're never going to move forward, we're going to continue to be where we're at.
It's an uncomfortable conversation, right? Because it's where we are bringing to the table, just a lot of unspoken things that have been in there forever. And again, I’m calling people to look at themselves, all of us, me, you, all of us. Because I know myself too—the things that I need to work on, already having a preconceived notion of how people are going to treat me, because of my blackness, because of my past experiences, right? So I sometimes have to deconstruct.
