How To Bounce Back After A Job Loss with Todd Kuckkahn
Are you feeling the sting of being laid off or fired? It can be difficult to look ahead, but this episode is here for some powerful motivation. In this episode, we discuss how to get back up and take control of your future—no matter what curveballs life throws at you.
In This Episode, You Will Learn About:
Recovering from job loss
How to open doors to new opportunities
Career benefits from losing a job
FREE Career Accelerator Workbook: https://bit.ly/3xXy8U
FREE Business Building Workbook: https://bit.ly/3xXy8U
Want to work with Danielle? Schedule your call today: https://bit.ly/3OnuLLO
Let's Connect!
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MsDanielleCobo
Twitter: https://twitter.com/DanielleCobo
Website: www.DanielleCobo.com
Book Recommendations: https://www.amazon.com/shop/influencer-de49157c/list/2W8I8NWS6N4CJ
About our guest:
After layoffs and being fired from a toxic culture, Todd Kuckkahn found himself unemployed. After years of frustrating workplace experiences, Todd set out to make a difference adding value to those, who like him, are passionate about ditching the workplace drama in favor of optimism, trust, honesty, enthusiasm, and teamwork. He is on a mission to revolutionize company culture and leadership.
Rate, Review, & Follow on Apple Podcasts
"Danielle is so Uplifting." <-- If that sounds like you, please consider rating and reviewing my show! This helps me support more women -- just like you -- accelerate their careers. Click here, scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with five stars, and select “Write a Review.” Then be sure to let me know what you loved most about the episode!
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dream-job-with-danielle-cobo/id1571797640
Also, if you haven’t done so already, follow the podcast. I’m adding a bunch of special release episodes and, if you’re not following, there’s a chance you may miss out. Follow now!
The Culture and Role of the Organization
You have an extensive background in leadership, being a consultant for the John Maxwell Leadership team and your experience working in corporate. So I'm really excited to have you on today. Tell us a little bit about your career journey and your background.
My background really is in education. I was a teacher coach coming out of college. Did a lot of college coaching as well. Then I got into the nonprofit world, did a lot of work with a lot of different organizations. Actually, I have worked with 17 different organizations since high school. I'm kind of like a millennial that is moving around with jobs. If I'm a little bit older than a millennial, I think. Ended up in working for a Chamber of Commerce. And then just recently, but a little over a year ago, I decided to jump on my own, become a full-time solopreneur in the leadership consulting area.
Well, it sounds like you've had quite the journey working for a lot of different organizations and a lot of different industries within those organizations. One of the challenges, and you and I talked a little bit before jumping on, one of the challenges that we're seeing in the workforce today is layoffs, which can be very discouraging. I know that I've worked for an organization where we went through multiple layoffs and it's difficult not only for obviously the person that's being laid off, but also those that are trying to navigate how to manage, read your team through that. Tell us a little bit, maybe a time where a company that you worked for has possibly gone through layoffs or restructuring.
Think the key element in all this is culture and if you're laying people off, if that has to happen, what kind of culture are you creating? How are you supporting your employees? I've been in some situations where I've been laid off. I've been in situations four times when I've actually been fired.
One of those firings was quite interesting. During the course of my tenure there, myself and two other vice presidents because of the culture, went to the board and said, our president asked to go. She just wasn't doing her job. And she was released, which is a risky thing to do, to jump over the president to the board of directors.
But then it turned around a year later and the new president came in, turns out the president of the board was good friends with the person that we got rid of. I was next on the shopping block and it was kind of interesting because the person I reported to the vice president, she read me the legalistic piece of paper off the document and I walked out the door like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. But as I'm driving home, she called me and apologized for having to do that. Because she was not interested in doing it. She was told she had to eliminate me from the position; it was an interesting transition. But again, another learning point for me.
I think that's one of the biggest challenges when we're working for an organization, and this is a two-fold situation. One being if you are the person that's being laid off, what a lot of people don't realize is there is specific language that human resources that your manager must do. And really the reason why is they're minimizing the risk of being sued. It's a lawsuit. There's specific language that they have to use and required to use, to minimize the risk of a lawsuit. And on the receiving end, it can feel very impersonal. It can feel very much so if you, especially if you've had a relationship with this individual, you can feel possibly undervalued, underappreciated, and robotic.
And then on the flip side, on the other side, you've got a manager who is having to read this verbatim language and it can feel so disconnected, when possibly that layoff has nothing to do with their performance, but has everything to do with maybe budget cuts. And it's to see and understand that perspective on both sides, that can be beneficial in understanding the why, because sometimes we start to internalize and we start to think, “Oh it's my fault, I'm getting laid off.” But that could be completely not the reason at all. It could have to do with budget cuts or restructuring or whatever the reason is.
What’s Next for Your Career?
What advice would you give to those who possibly may have been laid off? What would be the next steps for them to do?
You actually said the key word I was gonna say, and that's next. I used to coach with Bo Ryan and people who know basketball, he's a hall of famer and just about every hall of fame he always talked about next. When you lose a game, think next, what's next, practice. When you win a game, you don't think about your next opponent.
You think what are you gonna do next to make that step along the way. And that's really helped me a lot to get through a lot of different things, which I can't think of, five years, one year, or three months down the road. Right? Okay. What am I gonna do next? As I was driving you back from Appleton, Wisconsin, back to where I lived, about an hour drive. What are the next things I have to do? Well, I have to start reaching out to people I know and re-engage with their network. If you don't have a network, start creating a network. Get involved in LinkedIn. I just dove right into the job search and those who are closest to me.
We all hopefully have our inner circle of people that are the ones who are closest to us, our key, our advisors, our mentors, the people that we can rely on. Make sure you have conversations with them because they can help you get through particularly some of the mental part, your belief system. Because you're absolutely right, your belief system at least takes a nick, if not a blow. When something like that happens, and again, whether it's a budget cut or a performance issue, whatever, but you really just keep focusing on what's next. I sometimes call it failing forward, right? And at night you just fall into bed and the next morning you get up and start again and think about that. What's the next thing I need to do? And at some point you'll have time to reflect and think through what may have happened, what could you have done differently. But I think mostly focusing on what's down the road for you.
You alluded a little bit to that mindset, and I know that if there's budget cuts a little bit easier sometimes to digest. It may not have anything to do. It may have everything to do with maybe budget cuts. You also alluded a little bit about maybe that person was fired because of performance and reframing that mindset, not necessarily in saying, oh well, I'm horrible at what I do, I didn't perform well. And maybe it has everything to do with it, maybe it just wasn't an alignment culturally wise.
Maybe it wasn't the right job that you, per se, that you might be in. I know that there's been some people who have been in sales and weren't necessarily successful, and then they realign themselves to maybe operations or logistics and all of this, and then they started to flourish and their career started to just upward trajectory. It's really important to, as you say, protect that mindset and to look forward as to what's next. And there's also another word that you use that I wanna hone in on here, and that is reflection. Elaborate a little bit more on that reflection please.
Be Reflective with Yourself
I think in anything that we do, whether we're the most successful person on earth, or whether we're the most challenged person, I think we need to take that time to really think and referring back to John Maxwell, John spends, at least a half hour to an hour every day in a quiet room in his favorite chair with a legal pad and a pen. Now, I know for some of you, you're rolling your eyes, and that's old-fashioned, and yeah, you can use your phone, your tablet, but eliminate distractions. And he just writes down on his pad, whatever pops into his mind and really helps him.
You hear about a brain dump, right? If you can just cleanse your mind with everything, get it down on paper, be reflective about it, and maybe you don't address it at that moment. And you start seeing a theme if you do that every day. You start seeing that theme about what's on your mind and what's bothering you or what's giving you energy, and really reflect on those.
I've been fortunate to be around a number of people who have taught me more about that whole concept. It's not necessarily meditation, it's just being reflective and thoughtful and then it's easier to get on into your life. Okay, these are the things I have to do next, and maybe a couple ideas will come up, will bubble up through that reflection as well.
I am in a hundred percent agreement with you on reflection, and taking that time to put yourself and be intentional about putting yourself in a quiet space, because we are constantly bombarded with information, whether it's emails or phones or text messages in social media. And we're constantly clouded with information that's going back and forth within our synapses, within our brain. And so when we put ourselves in our intention about putting ourselves in a quiet space and minimizing all those distractions, that's when the clarity and the focus happens, the best innovative ideas happen, and doing it intentionally each day and journaling it. I found so much excitement, just journaling. And I think it's very reflective through that process and always looking at what are some of the successes that have been taking place? How can we continue to grow those? Hey, maybe what are some changes that I can do to adapt that growth mindset and be a better person tomorrow than I was today? Because that's continuous.
There's another little thing I've done too. And again, I'm more of a paper pen guy, but if you get a three by five note card, slip it in your pocket, your purse, wherever, with a pen. And when something good happens in your day, just jot it down real quick and even insignificant little things, jot it down. By the end of the day, you'll have 3, 4, 5 things. So when you go home to your spouse or your partner or your dog or your goldfish, and they say, well, how was your day? You can pull that card out and start talking about the good things that happened. So it's kind of a day long journaling of the good things that happened. It helps shift your mindset and when you go home, instead of complaining about all the bad stuff that happened during your day at work, you can pull that card out and go, Hey, at least three or four great things happen.
Maybe I just started out the day making my bed. Maybe that was a big accomplishment, but at least you've got one thing then to go home at night and say you've accomplished. But I think if you can do that and whatever system you use, journaling like you're used to, I think that's a great way to, again, keep that positive mindset, think about what's going on next, and really be reflective about your day and your life.
Reaching Out or Lend a Hand
I know that there's times when I was leading my teams, if ever I was having a rough day. I've always saved the thank you cards for my team. Anytime I was having just a rough day, maybe there's a lot of different fires going on that day and bombarded with information, I would just take a second to sit down and read through the thank you cards.
And it was just always a boost of motivation and energy and shifting that mindset for me. I know that mindset can have a fluffy, I would say, connotation to it sometimes, but it very much so is important. When you look at some of the most successful people that are out there, they're always focused on what's next. They don't let some of these challenges dwell on them and pull them back into a state where they're kind of stuck in that negativity and pessimism. Obviously going through a layoff is very challenging. It's very disheartening. Sometimes those doors shutting, end up being the doors that open for career growth.
There's always that next opportunity out there. And as you were talking, I was also thinking, what if you're a friend of somebody who has been laid off? What can you do? And I think besides being there obviously, and talking is sending a handwritten note. You know, think about when you get a handwritten note in the mail, right? A birthday card. But if it's a handwritten note, not somebody's poem, but a little handwritten note. I've done that in a number of different situations, both in careers and personally. And I get thank you notes for the thank you note or the gratitude note. One of the things I talk about is committing intentional kindness. The person who's been laid off, they're hurting no matter what they look like on the outside. Just jot them a quick note, “Hey, sorry it happened. How can I help? I'll be here for you, whatever the case might be.”
Coming off the conversation that I just had, whenever I'm having a rough day, I look at those thank you notes of what my team wrote, and that's exactly what you're sayingIf you know somebody who's recently gone through a layoff, take the time to sit down with them, talk to them, write a thank you note, because it's those little acts of kindness that makes such a big difference and helping them through that difficult situation.
It shouldn't be, but it's often that you feel embarrassed about it. As I drive home from the job where I read the legalese I'm thinking about, okay, I gotta tell my wife, I gotta tell my kids. I gotta tell my parents, I gotta tell her parents. And it's like, “Oh my God. I wanted to crawl in a hole.” And then,you get out of it, you start talking to people, networking. But looking at those notes, those nice notes you got in the past are currently making a big difference.
Moving Forward to What’s Next
They absolutely do. Let's talk about what to do next, because now you've in this position where maybe you've been fired or laid off, and we are talking about these next steps.
We first talked about mindset and gratitude and getting in that positive mindset so that we can focus on what's next. What are maybe, three to five steps that this individual can take if somebody's recently gone through a layoff or however been fired, what are three steps that they can take to get them towards that next forward motion or forward movement?
I think LinkedIn is one too. I think by now a lot of people, I don't know what percentage, but the majority of adults are on LinkedIn. I think that's a great tool for networking and connecting with people and reaching out to people. Obviously, getting on the phone, calling people in your network, going out, having a launch or a Zoom call, that adds so much more now the capabilities of connecting with people. But it's really about connecting, letting people know, making people aware. Don't send an email with your resume attached saying I'm looking for a job. I don't know if that's necessary yet to keep it somewhat personal.
And just continue to do that. That's what I've done in situations and it's more about who do you know is gonna get you to the next job? You can certainly apply for lots of jobs and copy and paste your resume, but what's really gonna make a difference is who you know, who can refer you to somebody.
One thing that Maxwell taught as well is when you talk to somebody at the end of the conversation, whether it's because you're laid off or you're a salesperson, who do you know that I need to know? Talking to that friend of yours and say, my situation now, who should I be talking to? Who can you connect me to and help spread that network? I just think if you're not already doing that, continue to do that. If you're in a job, you're not on LinkedIn, oh my gosh, get on it. So people can start seeing your face and seeing who you are. And then just connecting with others. Send notes to people, send handwritten notes to people after you have a lunch meeting with somebody or a coffee. Hey, thanks so much for taking the time outta your day to spend some time with me. I really appreciate it. I'll maybe reach out to you again in a couple weeks and let you know how things are going. The networking, the handwritten notes, once you get past the mindset part, just keep falling forward.
Building Connection to the Right People
I'm glad that you mentioned LinkedIn because LinkedIn is a powerful tool. I know that initially LinkedIn was a platform where people were, if you were looking for a job, that was a platform to use. But I'm finding that more and more people, professionals are going on LinkedIn whether they are looking for a job or not. And I can share two success stories. One being that I had a client who we worked on LinkedIn profile because they were positioning themselves, for wanting to step into a leadership role within their organization.
We worked on branding and optimizing their LinkedIn profile, and we worked on different ways this individual can showcase their leadership skills in person and online on LinkedIn. And it ended up being, he was not looking for a job, but it ended up being that his profile and the content that he was sharing, a recruiter reached out to him and set up an interview for a position two levels higher than where he was at . It was a significant jump in income and position. And he is now in a position that is in the C-Suite executive that is gonna open the doors for a very high trajectory in leadership within his career. There's this success of people who are in a job, they're very happy, but maybe a door is open for them that they didn't even know was out there.
And then the other situation where I've had clients. And I shared this statistics before, but on average, each online posting has 250 applications, and the automatic tracking system often only filters a top 10%. You may be a high performer, but if you don't have the right keyword in that resume, your resume may be filtered out. It's extremely important to have a LinkedIn profile that is up to date optimized for the SEO keywords, as you're saying, making those connections both over the phone, through thank you notes, and then also through LinkedIn as well. It's such a powerful tool.
On a much smaller scale as a solopreneur, I try to post daily, to let people know I'm not excelling. I'm just posting information about leadership and culture. And I had somebody who I coached in basketball 35 years ago. I told you I was old, but 35 years ago, he reached out to me and said, Hey, Todd. I see you're doing work with disk, the personality behavioral assessment tool. We just did some work with our company. Wanna do some more? Can we talk? One thing led to another and I ended up with a really nice contract with this company.
And again, it's all just because I stayed connected to my network and I was active. People knew I was out there. And like you said, you never know when that person's gonna reach out and get you that position. Not that you're out there looking for, but you're out there and there are always opportunities and it keeps you in front of people and on their mind.
It's because of people like you that are constantly posting on LinkedIn and sharing your advice on leadership, on behavioral types, that people are also learning. I find that a lot of. More and more content on LinkedIn is about developing different skill sets to thrive professionally and personally. And so it's now also becoming a platform where you can take LinkedIn learning courses. So if there's specific skills that you wanna develop, there's a lot of people that are posting very inspiring, motivating posts, but also some advice on leadership and change management and burnout. That's also being shared on LinkedIn as well, so it's now also becoming a very great platform to learn.
It's so powerful. You can be notified when it's somebody who you're connected to if it's their birthday. I send a happy birthday every time, just the other day, somebody reached back to me and said, oh, Todd, you made me think about what we'd like to do. Can you help us with this? My intention was just to wish my happy birthday, and now it turns around. you never know, you can learn a lot again, stay connected. Two things to be careful of, one, is if someone sends you a happy birthday note, don't send back a five paragraph sales pitch on what you're doing. Just say thank you and if you're gonna say thank you, make it look personal, because I'll ask some people, it'll say, ‘thank you, comma, comma, space, Todd Kuckkhan, comma.’ I'm like, okay, well that person really didn't want to be very sincere, but I guess I did reply, I'll take it. But make it personal, when you make a connection, add a note, make it a personal thing because it pays off in the long run.
I have to admit, I've been a little guilty of that. Because on average I get about a hundred messages a week through LinkedIn. I've got people that contact me through LinkedIn work, email, telegram Box, or WhatsApp, and you name it, they're connected. I have to. With the amount of LinkedIn messages I get, sometimes I do say thank you, but I do agree that there's more value in creating that personal element to that as well.
You've got a great problem. That's for sure. That's a great problem to have. Ike on mine, the automated. Message for happy birthday is a capital H small bee. I go in every time I change the small bee to a large bee and I add the person's name and that, just a quick thing like that. And, just those teeny tiny things I think. But again, it depends on how many messages you're getting in a day too. If it is, just responding is a good thing.
I wanna add to that too, because you've talked in various different ways about acts of kindness and these random acts of kindness. You said thank you notes, reaching out to people, as you said, saying happy birthday. Also take that a step further and write recommendations on people's LinkedIn posts, maybe that could be committing to writing three recommendations a week, a month, whatever that is, whether you're looking for a job or not, but you never know what that could mean for that individual. For that individual to hear how they're making an impact and how. That also strengthens your relationship with that individual as well. It's always about giving five times more than you're asking.
A good example, and it made me think of that as you were talking, Danielle. When you go to a networking event, maybe go to a Chamber of Commerce, social or some other networking event in the community for nonprofit, you've lost your job, you're trying to figure out ways to get reengaged.
You go to the event, don't go there and hand out 50 or a hundred of your business cards with your contact information, have some meaningful conversations with maybe five people that you don't know. And follow up with them with a handwritten note after the event. Hey, great talking to you, great meeting you. Here's my card. If you know of any opportunities, let me know. Is there anybody else I should talk to? Connect with 'em on LinkedIn. Send a personal message there. But don't go to an event and run off your business card or your profile. Make sure you make some meaningful connections, because those are to you so much, more good and longer. It's really about give to get or give to other people and it'll come full circle and return back to you.
